Transcript

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The following is an unofficial, unedited transcript of a recording of a public lecture. Due to problems with audio quality and background noise this transcript may contain errors. We apologize for any inaccuracies.

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Page One

MacLachlan:

Well, we decided to put the tape on, if that's ok with you?

Bill Mussel:

Sure

MacLachlan:

And we're interested in anything that…Bob was telling me something about Coqualeetza. We have little bits of information about how it got started. I was just asking him if he'd like one of those pictures. I'd meant to bring it down for you, but we have a picture of Coqualeetza taken a way back, 1890 or something. And I also have the introduct…or the account of the opening of Coqualeetza from the progress that I uncovered. You might be interested, yeah, well because…the Indians took advantage of having the commissioner here and so on to…outline some of their grievances. Land grievances and grievances over the fishing going down.

Bill Mussel:

Was that Mcgyver commissioner, Mcgyver?

MacLachlan:

Uh…

Bill Mussel:

What was the Commissioners' name?

MacLachlan:

No, it was Powell.

Bill Mussel:

Oh, Powell. Yeah, yes

MacLachlan:

It was Powell. It was Powell still. It was 1894, and it was signed by a number of…local people. So I'll pop those in the mail to you. I left them up in the camp, I forgot to bring them down. But Bob was starting to tell me about the…how the land came to be…acquired for, yeah.

Hang on [noise and problem with the microphone] its stuck, [laughter]

MacLachlan:

Where did the land come from, for Coqualeetza?

Bob Hall:

Where did it come from?

MacLachlan:

Yeah, yes the land, how did the Coqualeetza come to acquire the land that the building was erected on?

Bob Hall:

Well it, it came…when the Meth…Methodist Church come in, you know.

MacLachlan:

Um…hum (agreement)

Bob Hall:

And I don't remember his name but uh…it was uh…Tute, or Tate, or something like that. He…people like Chief Billy Sufass and there was a Stewart and I can't say any of their names, the Indian names, you know. But they…they made an agreement with them. I think it was six, the chiefs that were here at the valley, at that time. To build a…to build a school and to build their church. And it was called…they called it the Coqualeetza Industrial School. And it's where they, most of the people, come from in this area, but a lot came from Prince Rupert and up the coast area. They brought them down here to go to school. And they went to school half the day and they worked on the farm the other half the day. That's how the…the institution was supported at the time, was, they had a farm and it went over to the other side of Evens road there. And when they surveyed it turned out to about hundred sixty acres that they were farming. It was also agreed at the time, that when they didn't have no more use for it, that they'd turn it back to our people. And, I'm not too sure of the dates but…as the school developed there…a lot…a lot of people got sick here, in the valley, and they started what they called the crematorium. And the building is still sitting there. It's on the other side of this big building here. And…it's sort of a health clinic, sort of thing. And I believe they had a lot a trouble with…funding the institution as it developed and there wasn't really an Indian Affairs…I guess what they call the commissioner. He was just sort of…I don't know what you call the guy. But they were funny anyway.

Bill Mussel:

More in line with the U.S. system where you'd have a commissioner of a territory.

MacLachlan:

Yes.

Bill Mussel:

In fact…BC and the Yukon are the only two areas in Canada under the Federal government…where a commissioner was appointed…to look after the affairs of the Indian people in those two areas.

MacLachlan:

I see. And that was…

Bill Mussel:

And that was not changed until about, oh, middle of nineteen-fifties, but…it was very unique in terms of the federal system.

MacLachlan:

Did it tie in with this policy of not making treaties in BC…er? Or was it separate?

Bill Mussel:

I would think historically there is…it has…has a bearing because…most of our bands in British Columbia are non-treaties, although we are registered as Indian people. Treaties…the last treaty to be signed, I think, was eight. Which dips into northern British Columbia.

MacLachlan:

Which is where we are now?

Bill Mussel:

Yeah, I think that our ancestors were too peace…peaceable.

MacLachlan:

They weren't too peaceable?

Bill Mussel:

I think they were too peaceable.

MacLachlan:

They were too peaceable. Yeah…

Bill Mussel:

Otherwise treaties may well have been signed. There were a few signed by Governor Douglas. This was prior to BC becoming a province. The Fourteen…there were fourteen of them.

MacLachlan:

But that's just around Victoria, wasn't it?

Bill Mussel:

And up around Alert Bay, Port Rupert, Alert Bay area.

MacLachlan:

Uh…hum (agreement)

Bill Mussel:

…We're doing some research into them. To see whether they really have significance or not.

MacLachlan:

I see.

Bill Mussel:

But…at the time they were considered by governor Douglas to be quite significant. They were very much unlike those signed in the Prairies, for example.

MacLachlan:

They were unlike in what way?

Bill Mussel:

Well, in that in the prairie region they…they signed large tracts of lands.

MacLachlan:

Oh yes, right.

Bill Mussel:

And had provisions for a medicine chest in what's Treaty Six they gave and uh…educational provisions, this kind of thing. Actually the Indian Act in my…in my interpretation, was…developed to comply with the …commitments made under treaty. I think it was convenient, in a sense, for the Federal Government to include us (in British Columbia) under the Indian Act.

MacLachlan:

Oh, I see.

Bill Mussel:

Because, you look at many of the provisions under the Act, and they're very much along those given under the treaty…and certainly, some of those treaties were signed before many of the provisions, which are included in the present Act, were actually developed and put in a federal act.

MacLachlan:

But the Act has been changed from time to time hasn't it?

Bill Mussel:

…Very minimally.

MacLachlan:

Oh, is that right?

Bill Mussel:

Last change, I think, was in sixty-one. They've been very minor changes. The area…this area as I understand it, to add a little more to what Bob…told you. This was a…was treated more as a sort of a common area for…for the people of this (provincial locker--inaudible) and it was the place where…people would come and do large washings, the ladies would.

MacLachlan:

Now is this pre-historic, you mean before contact, are you talking?

Bill Mussel:

Yeah.

MacLachlan:

Yeah, um hum.(agreement)

Bob Hall:

In Coqualeetza like in…in our language means …a clear place.

MacLachlan:

Ah, yes…

Bob Hall:

It…one of the main villages used to be up Chilliwack Lake, which is about thirty miles over that side. So, when they come down the mountain, they could see Coqualeetza, from the mountain.

Page Two

MacLachlan:

I wonder…I wonder how it would have been cleared? Was it a natural clearing or did…?

Bob Hall:

It was a natural clearing.

MacLachlan:

It was a natural clearing. (affirming)

Bob Hall:

It was cottonwood. Like the whole valley was cottonwood. It's still like that up the river.

MacLachlan:

Yeah, well I remember where that cottonwood, all those cottonwood are out now.

Bill Mussel:

It grows very…very quickly where it's very wet.

Bob Hall:

But, here (on this site here) where the river used to go up on this side, by look-out cut (inaudible)…

MacLachlan:

Yeah.

Bob Hall:

Was cleared all in here.

Second female voice:

It was a lot (shorter?) than takes (inaudible) on today. This is called a natural cleared plain. They had to do no clearing at all. Mr. Ames told me about that…

MacLachlan

Well that's…yes, I know but this really…intrigues me. Because last summer Wayne Suttles was here and…I had been reading about the Kips' and the Reeses' and so on. And I know that they took over areas where there was now…where there was no clearing to be done, and they could cut the grass, and sell it for hay at twenty dollars a ton. So they were making money before they even, you know, just a little bit.

Bob Hall:

That was the white people that came in now.

MacLachlan:

That's the white people, yeah. But…

Bob Hall:

Yeah, but you got to recognise that, you know, like traditionally…well were Sto : lo people, were called Sto : lo people.

MacLachlan:

That's right.

Bob Hall:

It means river. And,…our lives…were…was the river. You know like, well, the anthropologists, I think they try to come up with all these theories that we were to…trying to turn into agriculturists.

MacLachlan:

Well, I don't know. It was just…the question was raised. Had the…because it seemed to me, it made a difference. Whether they had taken up…over a natural clearing, or whether they had taken over an area that the Indians had cleared for some purpose, you know.

Bob Hall:

Which is easier, you know, just to…to clear something, or to go live in a place that is already cleared?

MacLachlan:

Well, it…obviously it's easier to do that, but it…that's what you're saying is it really doesn't make any difference whether they cleared it, or were using a natural clearing. And that's you know, I think that's…

Bob Hall:

No, the traditional values, you know it's…we made our living from the river. And it's still the same way today. A lot of our people still live from the river.

MacLachlan:

Yeah, that's right.

Bob Hall:

You know. And the main camps were up…from Hope, up. That's where the main camps were. Musqueam, Comiakin, and Cowichan people use to come in the summer time, long before the white man came. To fish because…the stories…the whole river was just fish.

MacLachlan:

Yeah, yeah. (agreement)

Bob Hall:

It's…I think it's hard for us to believe…

MacLachlan:

To realise, yeah. (affirming)

Bill Mussel:

…but it…that's the way it was. And…I couldn't see why we had to go plant…corn and potatoes and carrots, stuff like that, when we had all that fish.

MacLachlan:

Yeah but couldn't…couldn't clearing be used for other purposes? I wasn't thinking of agriculture. I was thinking of a meeting place. Was there anything like this?

Bob Hall:

I think it was natural.

Bill Mussel:

Well, sometimes…celebrations were held in them. There were small clearings chosen for the site…village sites, and many of those were along the river, spots indicate.

MacLachlan:

Yeah, uh…um (affirmation)

Bill Mussel:

…, Also areas where different types of foodstuffs would be collected. Some would grow naturally.

MacLachlan:

Yes um…hum. (agreement) berries and roots…

Bill Mussel:

Roots and what not, right, right.

Bob Hall:

But we had two main…two main villages, a winter and a summer.

MacLachlan:

Yes.

Bob Hall:

And like the old…the winter village is still there, up in Laidlaw.

MacLachlan:

Ah, and you know where these sites are?

Bob Hall:

Yes, and…the summer camps were set up along the river, for the fishing.

MacLachlan:

For the fishing.

Bill Mussel:

So we have as one of our reserve areas…a common stop. A place where the people (Salish people generally) from the coastal areas would stop on their way up and on their way back.

MacLachlan:

Well.

Bill Mussel:

And it's…a common burial…ground. If someone were to die or to be killed, they were very often buried there, and we will not build on that piece of land.

MacLachlan:

Oh, I see.

Bill Mussel:

…My dad was asked why. One of his relatives were one of the hereditary chiefs in this area…

MacLachlan:

Yes.

Bill Mussel:

…was asked to protect it, and look after it.

MacLachlan:

Well.

Bill Mussel:

And we've had problems with people going in there, and digging without…

MacLachlan:

Oh! permission?

Bill Mussel:

…Without permission. But…we were very reluctant to use it, and that's a piece of land right in town.

MacLachlan:

Is it?

Bill Mussel:

And people go in there with their motorcycles and their bikes and speed through and all now. We're having an awful time. We're thinking of fencing it. But you know there, well, it's the kind of fence they use around Matsqui institution here. There's such a lot of destruction and damage going on in there. And when the school was built…Yale, the elementary…What's the name of the one near uh…little mountain? Little Mountain School.

MacLachlan:

Little Mountain school? Yes.

Bill Mussel:

When that one was built. That property is…it's right adjacent to our reserve. They came, they dug a lot of the graveyards up and found a lot of artefacts so, and they were just, I guess people just collected it. But that…school was just, right in front of our property.

MacLachlan:

Wow.

Bob Hall:

You see, what I think is really important, that…we tried to uh…make you understand in relation to Coqualeetza, and we've had a really hard time when we…trying to convince people that…you know, we need it. And we will not consider another site, or other location, you know, into uh…just this area itself.

Page Three

MacLachlan:

Um hum (affirmation)

Bob Hall:

A lot of…the non-Indian people here in the valley…don't want…don't understand, or they don't seem to want to understand, why we want Coqualeetza. There's…a traditional value, a hereditary value, that I think people can only understand by feeling.

MacLachlan:

Yes.

Bob Hall:

Um…that's where the Chinook language started was here Coqualeetza because uh…

MacLachlan:

Was it?

Bob Hall:

Oh, the Frenchmen that started that. But the Carrier used to come here and the Shushwap people used to come here. And this was sort of the main area to…to meet and counsel. Now, the interpretation given it by the Methodists was a place of cleansing, I think they called it. It was Coqualeetza. But it wasn't only that. You know…they made it seem that…all we did was come here to bath and wash our clothes. And there was much more to it than just…washing your clothes in the river. Now…a lot of our people were educated here, when the Methodists started. A lot of the present leaders today in BC , have…went to school here in Coqualeetza. And then they picked the very top, you know, the very few or the very select, and they sent them to Chilliwack School then. And after the national health and welfare took over, a lot of our people came here just to die. You know, and Coqualeetza, I think…you'll find is known by our people, anyway, all over the province. You know, and…now were trying to keep…them to their word that, you know, they don't have no more use for it, so, we want it back and for our…what we need.

MacLachlan:

And are you having problems getting it back?

Bob Hall:

Bill can explain, I don't think we are now.

Unidentified female voice:

Why the problem…why are you having problems? It seems a very natural thing that you should have it?

Bill Mussel:

Well let's put it this way. That…there are a number of reasons…I think, just to give it a little more background. This place is well known throughout British Columbia by our people; and I was, for example, I did some consulting work up on the Queen Charlotte Islands with the natives of Skidegate, with…a friend of mine. And I met his grandfather. His grandfather went to school here and was nine-two. And he came here as a thirteen year old. And he was…he showed me a couple of his newspapers that were put out here. Hand printed, you know. Newspapers and…he came here as a twelve year old, stayed for four years and then returned home and didn't come back. And…the reason that a number of people from the coastal area, particularly up in the Prince Rupert the greater area there, came here was because they were not Catholic. Catholics, children of Catholic families, could not come to the school when this place was first built. So, since they were Protestants, OK. And…those who came did…did very well and I…I…from all…all reports I've received…the teachers were good. They were…they knew what they were doing and they certainly were…were the kind of people who were keen on helping students develop into effective human beings, you know. And…it's the only school that I know of (and I've worked, you know, I've worked in Ottawa, I've been to most places in Canada, I've talked other people in other parts of the country), the only school which really had that kind of an impact on the students and it…

MacLachlan:

Where the kids had happy memories.

Bill Mussel:

Right, in the sense that the students still think very positively about Coqualeetza and are very keen on seeing it continue as an educational type institution…I've talked to…this fellow was telling me, for example, that because he was one of the older students here at the time…farmers used to come and ask to employ some of these young people to go and work on their farms, and what not. And the thing they always remember about the Valley were the cherries and the apples and the pears and what not. And how often they would get penalised if they should find a generous farmer and bring them back. You know, the teachers would take them away from them often, because they didn't think they would be given to them. And they had natural competition (in terms of sports) because most of our reserves around here are Catholic. Like my father and people in my own village couldn't come to this school because it was first discovered by a Catholic…missionary. And therefore taken as a Catholic enclave, in a sense. He wen…went to school, you know. This was here. The school he was sent to was Cooper Island, over on Vancouver Island, and then went to St. Mary's in Mission. The thing that was interesting to me, and I just learned this recently in the last couple of years, was that after this school was set up, the people who could…couldn't have their own children come (or their own village members) come to this school…approached the miss…the Catholic people, to buil…to build a school, and as a spin off, in effect, from this one St. Mary's was developed in Mission.

MacLachlan:

Oh, I see.

Bill Mussel:

And

MacLachlan:

Mary's was after?

Bill Mussel:

It was after. And…three Chiefs…brought the priests around and…the priests wanted the Chie…wanted the Chiefs to tell him where to build it. So the Chief chose the site in Mission. Just as the Chief had chosen this site.

MacLachlan:

Boy, this is interesting, isn't it?

Bill Mussel:

Just as the chiefs had chosen this site. That's why the agreement that Bob mentioned makes all the sense in the world to me, in that it was the Chiefs who granted the Methodists the permission to build here.

MacLachlan:

Well, that's why I asked you the question about the land, and we got off into this clearing thing…I…I was interested in who had, you know, what sort of claim there was to the land here? Was there a reserve area or was it used?

Bob Hall:

There used to be a…a graveyard like, the (inaudible) …used to build for the highways, the village called (inaudible) and…Chinatown used to be on…just on the other side.

MacLachlan:

Yeah, I remember Chinatown.

Bob Hall:

Nobody would understand is…is that corner lot, right there, by the freeway was mortgaged by the church to build the St. Mary's school.

MacLachlan:

St. Mary's, oh?

Bob Hall:

…That could create a little problem, though.

Bill Mussel:

Couple of years and we…we'll really wonder, what happened to the hundred and sixty acres?

MacLachlan:

Yes.

Bill Mussel:

You know, there's a sort of mystery, and we have a reason to come to the question you were asking about, why the difficulty. I really think, quite frankly, that a lot of, or some people, have made a lot of money on this property without having really legal title to it. They have strayed…

Unidentified female voice:

Well you can't…you can't define the hundred and sixty acres. This…this, the problem is it's the whole area…

Bill Mussel:

Well, that is…no, we're talk…we're trying to get sixty two, which is the remaining acres, but really there were a hundred and sixty.

MacLachlan:

And this…this is land that was given by Indians, for this? You see, I…I was never very clear about how they came up with…

Bill Mussel:

You see, again it's a legal document and our forefathers knew nothing about legal documents. You know, there was word of mouth and there was real trust. That was done, OK, and it's going to be done, and if it wasn't going to be used, it was to be given back.

MacLachlan:

I know, well, the whole history of land in…in this area. It's very interesting. I think there were a lot of unresolved things?

Bill Mussel:

Well, you know, the history of land, if you look at it in ter…land use in Canada and you compared with other countries…

MacLachlan:

Yeah.

Bill Mussel:

…it's very, we're very much behind, as Canadians, in the world.

MacLachlan:

Well, you can see the problems here, when there's so little arable land and it gets gobbled up very quickly but they were pre-empting land even before they had it surveyed.

Bill Mussel:

That's right.

MacLachlan:

So, you know, this is why I was asking the question at the beginning about the Reese's and so on. The…these people came in and were able to get enormous projects off the land, right away. And I've always wondered is how they really did get that land and who they displaced. And…what sort of arrangements, you know, we know about these sort of…well not even marriages, but…alliances with Indian girls. And what sort of contact was there with the (…ians-inaudible) group? And what kind of, you know, and you know to reach an understanding that was violated later and so on? You really wonder if they were lying?

Bill Mussel:

Jacksies were another original family.

MacLachlan:

Yeah.

Bill Mussel:

…There are relatives. I have relatives who are Jacksies.

MacLachlan:

Yeah, interesting.

Bill Mussel:

Goes back a long way. The…and the other thing is, that I really wonder about having yet being able to establish is this: that our…our village down in Chilliwack landing right now, which was "the", was the main village then, and…when the non-Indian people settled here, their centre started right on our present reserve…

MacLachlan:

Yes.

Bill Mussel:

…at the landing, and we were up in the higher ground. And then, suddenly, my forefathers were shuffled down to the lower end and the town started where it is…

Page Four

MacLachlan:

Well, they re-wrote history, right?

Bill Mussel:

The town was moved up there, but there was a flood in the eighteen hundreds and the water came right up the five corners in downtown Chilliwack.

MacLachlan:

Ninety-four

Bill Mussel:

It was ninety-four, right.

MacLachlan:

Well, there's one in eighty-two as well.

Bill Mussel:

Yeah, and…my grandmother remembers the flood and what not. And then…in forty-eight we're flooded again, and our reserve was totally inundated. And they built a dyke right on our border. We had…they…they've kept us outside of the dyke, the protected area. And now they're trying to build another dyke…build a new dyke and if…and we're trying to get all our reserve land included, and there's no way. We're having a hell of a time.

MacLachlan:

I've often wondered about the (pa-ing inaudible) of these various areas too. You know, if you looked at the… if you got a map of uh…good soil areas, you know, the those…those kind of maps they can make out, and then you look at these areas, I think that would be very interesting.

Bill Mussel:

We've done a bit of it.

MacLachlan:

Have you? Yeah.

Bill Mussel:

The lands we had originally were far richer.

MacLachlan:

Of course. Well, you look at where some of these areas are and they're on rocky, uh…stony area…oh, well.

Bill Mussel:

And…the…we have a common reserve up in here…called Grass Prairie, which is what, nine bands, no seven bands?

Bob Hall:

Nine bands.

Bill Mussel:

Nine bands and that was given…as I understand the history of it, to our ban…no to the…no…to our tribe in this area. Because of the work that our forefathers did in helping to drain a lot of these areas. But the land they got, which is presently the Grass Prairie, is…is very inferior. It's…it's very boggy and very wet and there's only one small section of it that…that's useful land. And that, that was granted.

MacLachlan:

Have you seen some of those petitions that are dated around eighteen-seventy-six, when…chiefs in this area, did you know if there in those papers, yeah…

Bob Hall:

That (inaudible), when was that.

Bill Mussel:

I don't know, it was Tate?

Bob Hall:

That was long ago

Bill Mussel:

Yeah, I've seen some of it.

MacLachlan:

Well, I've always thought. I've, you know, I've always felt that was interesting because it's useful in many cases today. You'd think that…the Indians didn't know what was going on then and that they just started to become aware now. And then you read some of these petitions and you realise, they knew very well what was happening. But the protests weren't having any…the proper effect.

Bob Hall:

Well, it was supposed to go from down here at…Chilliwack Mountain, across the valley.

MacLachlan:

What was, the reserve…?

Bob Hall:

Yeah. It was all given to us. That was James Douglas, like. That was the first time and then another guy come, the next guy after him. Who was he?

MacLachlan:

…Trutch.

Bob Hall:

Trutch, oh, that's the guy. He's the one that set us down to the table.

MacLachlan:

That's right. That's right. He was always upset.

Bill Mussel:

But there's really not much written about him yet, but that guy was a dirty guy.

MacLachlan:

Oh, when you get into the correspondence and, you know, he says right out: "These Indians are not making use of the land", and he takes it from them.

Bill Mussel:

Well, that's the problem we're getting today, in terms of getting this property. You know, the government immediately thinks that, you know, we're going to be like white guys and once we get…if we get title to it, we're going to subdivide and…and make all kinds of money on it. And, it's the last thing we want to do. We want to at least keep what we have left and use this for educational purposes, and not subdivide and…and run shopping centres, and residential development, and the whole business.

MacLachlan:

How about telling me something your plans or what you are going to do next.

Bill Mussel:

We can, yeah. In…what nineteen-sixty-seven, or sixty-eight…we got word, or we got we heard rumours (and usually rumours come true) that this was going to become surplus to federal requirements. And...Richard Mal (and Al--possible) and a few others spoke to me and I was…I was quite a bit involved at the North American Brotherhood at the time. And I had drafted a resolution, which is duly carried by the North American Indian Brotherhood, which at that time, was a very active organisation of the interior of the province with the…this being one of the borders. Chilliwack was one of the borders. It went right up through the Cariboo up into the Williams Lake country and Prince George area and the Kootenays. That was the general area covered. And it was… our organisation and, in fact, which was developed as…or which developed rather, in reaction to a claim by the Native Brotherhood that they represented all of us in British Columbia. Now, we said…we developed briefs and what not in the late fifties. And remember the joint senate committee hearings in…fif…from fifty-nine and sixty-one…we…that we…we started just prior to that and developed briefs and elected three delegates as spokesmen for the interior. And um…uh…I was just out of high school then. And…so I was going to meetings and I was elected secretary, right off the bat. And, boy did I learn a lot. I did a lot of typing and a lot of writing. And my mother was very active and she was on the executive and she was one of the spokesmen who wanted to make submissions to the federal government with George Manual and Bill Watcom from Spences Bridge.

MacLachlan

Bill's mother was Chief?

Bill Mussel:

She's the first woman Chief in Canada.

MacLachlan:

Yeah, yeah, quite unique…

Bill Mussel:

Yeah, and…they did a very good job. And any way it was that organisation which submitted a…a resolution to Ottawa, stating that…after…whatever, this becomes surplus, that we have a need for it and we wish to have it continue really, in effect, for our purpose. A committee was struck and when it did become surplus, a committee was struck, and Gord…and Bob…Bob's Dad worked. Gorden Hall knows quite well, worked on that, and a few other people. And they tried to get…acquisition of the facilities for various purposes, but at that time the federal government was saying: "No, it's really got to be more viable," and what not. And…my own feeling was that the proposals made were a bit too narrow. They didn't include a conceptual kind of approach to utilisation of what exists, ok. After a few more years and a few more proposals the people locally transferred the responsibility to acquire the property, in fact, to the Union of BC Indian Chiefs, which was an organisation founded in late sixty-nine. Sixty-nine, yeah, November sixty…

MacLachlan:

It's amazing how much has happened recently.

Bill Mussel:

November six…November sixty-nine was the founding meeting in Kamloops. And really not much was done. And I started working for them as executive director in seven, fall of seventy-one. And…Dr. Butler with the Health and Welfare, was used to try to…tried to open it up as a training centre. But the difficulty with…with them managing it, is this: that they could only solicit…users from the federal service. They couldn't go out to the general public, you see. They couldn't advertise because it's federal property. And…it was a flop. It had to be highly subsidised, and what not. And when Gordon Butler was hired as the regional director for the western section of the Health and Welfare…he was a sort of a new kind of light, in a sense, because he was keen on working in co-operation with us in order to try and figure out what to do. And…he pulled out all the data and showed us what the costs were, which made a lot of sense because really. It was a drain. And but, what was really…frustrating to all of us, was that when…that when we began to discover the sources of funds used, it wasn't new money as the people who negotiated to have it continue to be operated by Health and whoever. It wasn't new money and that was the belief the negotiators had. It was our rep…our negotiators. John Monro, who was the minister for Trudeau's first government (John Munro was the Minister of Health and Welfare) had said, in effect, that it would be new money. But when in early…in seventy-two we began to research what funds were being used, we discovered it was money that was for, money the…prevent, or the…actually the…the treatment of teeth problems, eye problems, and these are …and this was coming out of existing budget.

MacLachlan:

I understand.

Bill Mussel:

And kids in the villages in the North and whatever were being deprived of it, because they were using dollars to keep this place open. And we were really quite turned off about that. But anyway…in…December of seventy-two, December of seventy-two, the Chief's Council of the Union, which is the governing body, gave me as the executive director the authority to hire a consultant. And at that time we had to have a proposal in by the end of the fiscal year, which by…which was March thirty-first. So we were very fortunate in getting Bill Horswell to do the study. And we immediately got…got a planning committee together. Bob was on that. A few of our own people were trained in research and they went right from village to village, talked to the people, and asked them what kind of things they wanted…where do you…what they had felt were problem. And then really, by deduction and analysis specific kinds of training…could be identified, which could take place here. [Gap in Tape] In other words the interviews were done without talking about Coqualeetza. It was done in terms of needs, ok.

MacLachlan:

Ah, yes.

Bill Mussel:

Which was the best way…way of…in order to approach this kind of research. And a number of very, very significant things were…were established and certainly there…there was a way for us to full…fully utilise these facilities, ok. The Government in its usual fashion, the Health and Welfare was keen on dumping it, because it was taking so much of their money. And we kept saying: "no", you gave us the commitment to have our study in by the thirty-first of March and you would consider it. We no sooner hire a consultant, then in January I get phone call from Ottawa, telling me that there's going to be meeting, between Crown Assets and Health and Welfare, to transfer it over to Crown Assets. And here they were telling us one thing and they were doing another. And after further checking, they in fact, were doing that.

Page Five

MacLachlan:

While they were talking to you?

Bill Mussel:

Yeah and…anyway, it came out that we had to chop eight days off our critical path in doing the study, which is significant. We only had three months to do a big, you know, a large research project. And we got it in, you know. Worked sixteen, Bill worked about sixteen hours a day for those for those three months, literally he worked that long. And, you know, you can't find many people around who will do that and he's not Indian, he's a non-Indian. A tremendous guy and very confident. And the committee worked, scurrying around getting their research done, compiling, holding meetings, stapling the studies together. Came here with a, with a fat study. Stapling them together all night and I sent Bill to Ottawa to deliver them before the deadline date and I flew a couple days later and…and started meeting with the people. Anyway, to make a long and complicated story short…the Union got cold feet, the Chiefs' council. Now the proposal encompassed the whole province of BC and politics and various other things. Any way, whatever, what resulted was that…a planning committee was appointed by the Union of Chiefs Council to re-evaluate…

Male voice entering the room:

Pardon me, you want to look through the village? Is this…is this the group that wants to look through the village?

Bill Mussel:

Yes…would you like the tour to go in a little while…

(end of tape side one) lead in goes back to ( in other words interviews) maybe.

MacLachlan:

Yes, well that would be very nice, but this is too interesting to miss right now. [laughter]

Bill Mussel:

OK…now

Another male voice:

I'm through at three o'clock.

MacLachlan:

I see.

Bill Mussel:

You're through at three, I see. Well…

MacLachlan:

We could just wander through on our own, can't we?

Bill Mussel:

We could probably take them around the place, if you like, ok.

MacLachlan:

Thank you very much.

MacLachlan:

I think this is more important than the tour.

Bill Mussel:

…Ayway a planning committee was struck to really re-evaluate what was going on. And really it's a difficulty that we ran into. And I was very much a part of it because I was…I was the senior staff member and also by way of my…the constitution of the Union, the Chairman of the Council, which was ridiculous. You can't be the senior administrator and be a chairman of a governing body. But that's the way they…they had it in their constitution. Anyway…they appointed a planning committee and really what it boils down to, and this is my own personal opinion, was this: that in order to begin to understand how to meet needs, you've got to be able to conceptualise in terms of educational planning. And some of the people who were on that Council really haven't the…the skill or the ability to do this and, therefore, didn't really understand what it was about. So when people began to question them about what might go on, they couldn't answer it. You see, some of the people there hadn't got much training or education and what not, so we ran into those kind of difficulties. Anyway a planning committee was struck and the committee met and made a recommendation to the Chiefs' Council again (the governing body) that it be transferred over to meet the need of three districts, the Lillooet--Lytton one. The Union has sixteen (fifteen?) in the province. We're divided in like ridings. Ok,…transferred to the Fraser District of Indian Affairs which encompasses three of the Union districts: 1. East Fraser (which is ours), Langley to Yale (in effect on both sides of the river) 2. And the other side of Langley to Musqueam up to Sechelt-- Powell River 3. Squamish Band (that general area) and Lillooet--Lytton was Mount Currie right up to Lillooet bit…not Lillooet Bridge River, that and Lytton Ok, those are the three ridings, in effect, that this was to meet the needs of. And that was the sample. We included those three as our sample in that study. So fine, ok…a meeting was called in September last year…to elect an interim Board. The Council agreed to having a…propo…the planning committee's recommendation to set up an interim board to get the thing, you know, get the property and get the thing rolling. And also to incorporate as a…as a separate entity, but with the members being the Bands of these three districts. And…we had the meeting…we held the meeting here in September and it was at that time that they elected an interim Board and Bob and I are two of the six who were named. And…we had Shirley Leon, who's from Agassiz school board member ( a tremendous gal), Mary Luanndoo(sic) from Seaward Island, who's a Council member there, originally from Lillooet Lake; Mark Point, who's a Band manager with Caulkay…Mark: Wilma Mussel, who's from our Band: Wayne Bob, who's our local district community development worker. We're the six that were appointed and given this monstrous task. Uh…it was monstrous, in the sense that we knew really what we were getting into, in terms of trying to negotiate. So the six of us…we drew up the constitution and we continued to…to negotiate and try and get the thing off the ground and we flew back and forth to Ottawa. And we're all doing…we're doing it on volunteer time. We haven't got a cent to work with, but we believe in what we're going to do here, you see, and we've been given the job, so we're doing it. And the government won't come across with any dollars either, in terms of finding them help. There's funding for it but they won't, you know, help. So, anyway last…Thursday, well prior to that, Bob and Mark were back a week before, what three weeks ago now? And they went through and tried to really find out where in the hell things were at, in terms with Crown Assets with Indian Affairs, the various parties who are involved in this particular property. And…they finally came up and were able to agree, had Indian Affairs agree, that a meeting be set up with Crown Assets to establish a price. They want us to buy it. Four hundred thousand dollars is the price. And this…they popped this on Mary Lou Bark and I when we were sent back by the board to Ottawa in October. Popped this price out of the blue on us and we said "Listen, you know, the precedent's been set by the federal government, it's that we've got a use…a use for it, which complies with the goals of the department concerned, which is Indian Affairs. We can get it for a dollar. All it is…is a paper entry, one department to another, you transfer property. That was what we where working on, and we were told, "yes, that's true and Health and Welfare said there's no question about it and that we'll even give you a dollar to pay", because that was Health and Welfare's attitude. But they…you know they didn't want to, continue to incur the cost. So anyway we get this four hundred thousand. We tried to find out, where in the Christ did this four-hundred-thousand come from.

MacLachlan

Yes, where did they come up with that figure?

Bill Mussel:

Ok, we found out when we went back. Bob and Mark helped us out and finally set up a meeting with Crown Assets. Now the thing that was really interesting and this sometimes, we were, you…you run across this. The one fellow in Crown Assets who was handling the property wanted nothing to do with any Indian people. He would have a meeting with Indian Affairs staff. And that is what he'd say as well, yeah.

MacLachlan:

He said that?

Bill Mussel:

Oh, sure. Nothing to do, I don't want to meet any Indians, you know, but I'll talk with Indian Affairs about a price, you know. Anyway, Bob and Mark got this guy at Indian Affairs, or Bob and Mark went to Indian Affairs and agreed on one fellow to co-ordinate it, and the co-ordinator put my name on the list to be at the meeting to establish a price. Now um…this fellow asked who I was, and he immediately said, "well, he's a consultant". Which, I do. [laughter] That he wanted to (inaudible) like

Unidentified voice female:

It's funny

Bill Mussel:

Anyway, I ended up taking back two board members with me and our lawyer. We have a very good lawyer, thank goodness, you know.

MacLachlan:

Yes.

Bill Mussel:

…And, he's Chinese [laughter], I don't think they even thought he was Chinese, when he came into our meeting. But anyway…we went back and ended up having a pretty good meeting with Crown Assets. Found out that as the new policy of the Crown Assets department is to definitely receive a price for whatever property becomes surplus, but the price will be determined by the purposes…by the purpose to which it will be put and by whom. Therefore, they give preference to other federal departments, which is…is a natural federal requirement. But if the federal department has no use for it, it will then become available to the pro…provincial government. And if the province doesn't have a use for it, then it will come down to the local municipality. But one of our competitors is the local municipality.

MacLachlan:

Oh…

Bill Mussel:

Another competitor is the federal department, which is the Army Camp.

MacLachlan:

Oh…

Bill Mussel:

Army camp wants this property. They're becoming a bigger camp all the time. So we've had all kinds of fun. So we've met with the city and what not and talked with the mayors and planning committee. The city had said, "we want that property for a junior college". And…and you know, there's all kinds of people who want this property, You see, I'm sure a lot of local citizens don't really want Indian people to have it.

MacLachlan:

Yeah…

Bill Mussel:

It's a desirable piece of property. Anyway…we said we agreed that…we agreed to a price and…and to lease it on a four year basis with the option to buy. And I got it confirmed in a wire on Friday. So…

Female voice:

(inaudible) isn't that….

Bill Mussel and MacLachlan:

Yeah, yeah.

Voices:[agreeing and showing disgust.]

Bill Mussel:

That's not uncommon. That's the kind of thing you have to go through a lot.

MacLachlan:

No. Yes.

Bill

And I just say, thank goodness I worked in Ottawa a while and I know how that machine runs.

MacLachlan:

Yeah, Yeah.

Bill Mussel:

If I didn't, you know, we…we'd be pretty lost.

MacLachlan:

You'd be lost

Bill Mussel:

Bob's got some experience. Mary Lou is getting more all the time, you know. So…so that's where we're at now and once we can get the…a lease signed. we can move in and start…or actually start planning and getting serious about hiring some staff and getting rolling. Now what, do we want to with it? Maybe you can take over for awhile, Bob.

Question male:

Do you have any plans for the building?

Bill Mussel:

Oh, yes.

MacLachlan:

I think Bob's got one?

Page Six

Bob Hall:

Yeah, we have…quite a few plans, actually…I don't think I'll give you them in any one order. But…some of the key, you know, areas of problem...that Coqualeetza will help to serve of our communities in the way of education is its use for the present available courses. You know, like upgrading, Canada Man…Canada Manpower training programs, on the job training programs, local government development…chief and council sort of training programs, of responsibilities…decision making, administration responsibilities, etcetera. Another area that wants to come into Coqualeetza is what's called the…the Sto : lo centre. It's a cultural…cultural development, linguistically…if you're in archaeology…they have a plan for a whole village site…and trying to tie together the anthropologists and so on, you know, in the cultures. It's totally controlled by…by our people. They'd like these parts of the political administration and for the program. There has been numerous requests for…office space for…we've been discussing this one wing here as being sort of an administration block, housing different administrations…per programs in this one block here, this main part of the building. We've been looking also at…sort of the economic development aspect to possibly generate some type of revenue to sustain Coqualeetza in future use. That would be out on the forty-two acres that's undeveloped, just out here. We haven't come to any kind of uh…sort of decision or conclusion on that aspect of it. It's kind of a critical one to us.

MacLachlan:

Uh…huh (agreement)

Bob Hall:

Um…there'll be numerous other courses, education in relation to, I'm not to sure how we call it, but it's sort of a pilot research aspect or a resource centre, in relation to educational needs. Pilot programs for the present skills, you know, like a…a social studies ten, eleven, twelve, etcetera, being developed here at Coqualeetza, but going into the public schools.

MacLachlan:

What about schools on reserves? There's a…a move a foot now to develop…they have people take over…take over school boards on reserves, isn't there?

Bill Mussel:

In our district, there are only two Bands, which are large enough to have their own School Board.

MacLachlan:

I see.

Bill Mussel:

We're all very small. Our average population per band in BC is around three hundred. You know we have one band. Ours is the largest, I think, on this side of the river, and we have just under three hundred members. So it's not realistic to consider us having our own school. So I think that for bands like ours in this area, with the exception of maybe Seaward Island and Chehalis, which are the two that have elementary schools. Oh no, Seaward no longer has an elementary school. They're threat…they've moved into the public school system. But Chehalis still has an elementary. So we're going to have only one…one band with their own school, up to grade six. Now, for bands in those straights, really because everything's based on per capita in terms of cost, it would be very unrealistic to consider having our own schools. So, in line with that…the Board's discussed and certainly it's included in the proposal that, because the public school systems (some of them anyway) are becoming a little more concerned about the fate of our children in their schools (they only have a few) seriously concerned about it and genuinely concerned, we're quite optimistic that we'll be able to negotiate with the province and acquire some dollars to develop experimental type programs to help the teachers, the school system, become more relevant to our children. And I'm sure that in the process there'll be a spin off in this, if its works, and it will also…the system will become even more relevant to the lower social economic children. It's my opinion…now we have got to be more…more of a human kind of development thing, you know. And…I 'm quite…quite sure we can get the dollars for that and use as the…as the experimental area, schools in Mission, Chilliwack, Hope, this sort of thing.

MacLachlan:

Yes and you could be a centre to…

Bill Mussel:

That's right…that's right and…and the area in which we have most…most, so--called professional people (in terms of white standards) is in the educational fields. We have more teachers than in any other profession. So there's just this one possibility, no. Some of you may ask, well, you know, Bob mentioned upgrading type programs, and what not, and a few others which are on the surface, which do sound like…like courses already being given. They are being given elsewhere, but the thing we found is that too many of our people will not go. They are looked upon and treated, as being so different that they're not comfortable. And nobody likes to be treated as though they're different, and therefore, will not go. And we have people in my own band who are saying: "why don't you people get going up there, so we can return to school?" These are people who are maybe twenty, twenty-five who are…are maybe a bit footloose, but they…they know they need more training…technical…vocational and academic, but be damned if they're going to go to the regular school system. Some are scared, literally afraid, to go to Vancouver. And I don't blame them. They've been down, they've seen the traffic, they've seen what goes on and what not, and they just don't want to go into Vancouver to take the training. So, it's our hope at the Board to be able to…get on staff a co-ordinator of programs, who'll help bring about these things and to identify them in terms of priorities. And we…we get the staff…the best staff we can and even borrow them if we have to because we don't have that many dollars to work with. And with the input from our villagers through education committees…develop programs which are really very relevant. And through that process I'm quite sure that…that once they're gone through a…say an upgrading program here, at three months, or six months) they'll be able to fit very easily into the other ones. It's a matter of getting the confidence. And actually, know they, discovering they can do it, you know. And develp more confidence, and move from one group, to another, and much more easily than they can right now. They need a base. And it's going to be that base.

MacLachlan:

Yeah, that's right. Everybody does.

Bill Mussel:

Sure, and…that is why they're all keen on having something going here which is their own. It's got to be theirs, you know. And…that's generally the kind of...

MacLachlan:

That's very exciting. I certainly hope…that it works for you, that it goes without getting more problems.

Bill Mussel:

Well…well, I think we've almost overcome the major hurdle. Indian control of Indian education is a good position. And it certainly opens the doors, if bands want them.

MacLachlan:

That's right

Bill Mussel:

But the thing we're finding is that the government's tending to push it, and that's not fair.

MacLachlan:

Yes, and you can't do that.

Bill Mussel:

It's not fair, at all. The other thing that's happening, and we're questioning and we're questioning in the District you know. Bobs' being a Chief is on a District Council. We have twenty-four Bands in our East-Fraser area between Langley and Yale in effect.

MacLachlan:

Um…hum…(agreement)

Bill Mussel:

And we meet regularly as an East-Fraser District Council. And I have the honour of being their representative and a member on the Chief's Council of the Union. And…we've talked a bit about education, haven't made any formal decisions, though we've talked a bit about it. And some of our Chiefs are really concerned about this that when the…when our children were allowed to go to public school…and the federal government actually accepted it as being a reality for many areas, they suddenly began to sell off to the province and were only too happy to, in fact, pay what the…what the costs were to the province. And that included not only tuition fees but also large capital expenditures to enlarge physical plants to accommodate the number of children. And what the government is now doing is saying they want formal decisions from bands to authorise them to make capital contributions to school districts to enlarge schools. And there's an example right in Hope, right now. The band said, "Listen that's double subsidy", you know, in terms of the cost of education. The department pays on our behalf a per capita fee to the school district. And on top of that also has to pay for the capital costs to enlarge the facilities, to accommodate our children. And they make a good point, you know, because where does most of the money come from in a district to educate a child, you know? They immediately…remove us as members of the village. But where do we buy our goods? Where do we purchase our gasoline? You know, we're paying every tax that everybody else pays except for.

MacLachlan:

The land tax…

Bill Mussel:

Except for a local land tax, but some bands are now charging…what is in effect a land…not a land tax but a…user tax.

MacLachlan:

A user tax, yeah.

Bob Hall:

You know, we're trying to pay land tax because its…it's leased, you know. We…well lets see, after paying tax in the city or municipality.

Bill Mussel:

Any non-Indian lessee gets hit with taxes from the local municipality. And we don't get a cent of that. If they wreck our roads going through our village to get to that land, they do nothing to help us repair those roads.

MacLachlan:

That's right. And I also remember that little stretch of road (on a reserve) that was never touched, you know, in what about a…

Bill Mussel:

Well, we're…we're still trying to collect from two lessees in our Reserve because we paved it right through the middle. And the…and they took over a lime…a load of lime right after the road was just freshly paved and cracked it by the bridge and they didn't even think twice about it. And yet they're not paying the…the Band Council, the Village Council, anything to use that road, and we're now trying to negotiate to get payment as well as costs for helping build or put in that paved road. But that's the problem…that's those…that's the fees they are paying to the municipalities, a couple of thousand dollars each. And that municipality does absolutely nothing for us.

Female voice:

What's your next step here? Hiring staff and…and getting started?

Bill Mussel:

Yeah, we've got…the gen…the jobs which need to be filled immediately to…to comply with our phase one, which is really a planning and development phase, where we will have to…we will hire a manager, a couple of clerical staff, a program co-ordinator and a few consultants, to develop the programs…training programs that we will require. We should have an operation in September. That's our phase one, April one to Sept…August thirty-first, phase two September to March thirty-first. And during that phase two we will have programs going here. The manager's job as well will be, maybe it will require a full time staff person for a while, or the board will work part time on it.

MacLachlan:

Who will be your staff, Indian Affairs?

Bill Mussel:

No, we're going to hire our own staff.

MacLachlan:

How are you going to do it?

Bill Mussel:

We're going to, well there's a cultural education fund that we can get some money from, seed money, ok. Then we can negotiate contracts with other bodies, to carry out certain kinds of projects. And there are some dollars available

Female voice:

Sure…

Bill Mussel:

…and it's through that that we're going to be able to pay. We're hoping, for example, as well to assist…the local school district in terms of renting them space for classes. There's a shortage of space here.

MacLachlan:

I see, I see.

Bill Mussel:

We also intend on, if we can assisting in the development of the junior college provided the referendum goes through on March second. And in fact, we're writing…I'll be writing on behalf of our Board early next week to the…to the parties involved and asking them to set up their administrative unit here and we'll rent them the space.

Page Seven

MacLachlan:

Sure.

Bill Mussel:

And we'd also like them to put the library in here, you know, because they won't have their own facility for a long time.

MacLachlan:

Well, and now that you…and you know that they've been interested in the site and now you have the control. Sure, that's a marvellous idea.

Bill Mussel:

So…we'll be…we'll be use…providing space and also at the same time getting enough from them in terms of rental to cover the basic costs of doing it. We're not keen on making a profit.

MacLachlan:

No, but as Bob says, "you have to…have to look ahead"

Bill Mussel:

That's right…

MacLachlan:

…and you have to have some kind of economic base so you can operate.

Bill Mussel:

So phase three then will be another planning one and then in phase four in fact, which will be September seventy-five, we should be really in full operation and utilising most of it…the space here. We also intend, for example to, if we can, lease the nurses' residence, which is a very nice residence over here, to the Army for their instructors. They used it last summer and they pay the costs and what not for it. So, we'll use it in whatever way we can to make sure that it is being fully utilised and, at the same time, through that we're making sure our operating costs are being held down.

MacLachlan:

And it's kind of a holding operation too, because you still have control over the school.

Bill Mussel:

That's right.

MacLachlan:

…if you want to extend your own activities. Well, this has really, really been terribly interesting. I've always had this feeling that if somebody took a good hard look at Coqualeetza and looked at the history of it, they would, you know, they would learn an awful lot about the history of the Indians in the area.

Bill Mussel:

All of BC really.

MacLachlan:

Thank you so much. In BC, you're right, yes. So, I can't thank you enough for giving us your time because I know you're both very busy.

Another female voice:

You see…you seem to me to be very young to be a Chief. What's the age group of the Chiefs?

Bill Mussel:

Oh, I don't know.

Female voice:

Are…are you…are…are other Chiefs your age?

Bill Mussel:

…We have lots of us. I'm a former Chief. I'm an old Chief. [laughter]

Female voice:

How do you become a Chief in a Band?

Bob Hall:

…It's through elections.

Female voice:

And how long is it before the Chief is changed?

Bill Mussel:

Every two years.

Bob Hall:

I think they're trying to change it to four, I think.

MacLachlan:

Trying to get a…little more continuity.

Another female voice:

Do you have re-election for one chief, who'll remain for a number of terms?

Bob Hall:

Oh yes, Like, we've had some Chiefs here for a long time.

Bill Mussel:

My younger brother's Chief at home right now. He's serving his second term. I was a Chief in sixty-six…sixty-five, sixty-six, sixty-seven. And then I resigned.

Bill Mussel:

But our Chiefs are…are young.

MacLachlan:

Yeah, it's an interesting generation, this one. I saw a lot of them at the junior high level too in Sardis, you know. And it's really quite interesting to see people like Herby Joe and…and

Bob Hall:

Herby's a Chief.

MacLachlan:

Yes, I know. I haven't seen him for years. But

Bill Mussel:

I just left him.

MacLachlan:

Did you?

Bill Mussel:

Well, Herby's a Chief, yeah…Ed Kelly's a former Chief…

MacLachlan:

Yes, right, Ed didn't go to Sardis.

Bill Mussel:

No, he went to senior high when I was going. Worked for temp, right there. And…that's Young Ed.

Bob Hall:

Young Eddy

MacLachlan:

Pardon me. Young Ed. Yes I know his name.

Bill Mussel:

Um…Percy Roberts is in Council.

MacLachlan:

Yes, I met Percy last summer. Yeah…oh, it was great. We came up last summer with a group from U.B.C and here were all these kids from Sardis school, and…goodness, it kind of made me homesick. They put on a Salmon bake…

Bill Mussel:

Mark's the Band manager for (Block or Blond- inaudible)(sic)

MacLachlan:

And…Jill is Mark's wife.

Bill Mussel:

Yes, she's at Simon Fraser.

MacLachlan:

Jill was in my class. No, she went to college.

Bill Mussel:

Oh, is she? I thought she's at Simon Fraser.

MacLachlan:

No, she went to college.

Bill Mussel:

She's from Lummi originally.

MacLachlan:

Yes that's right, uh…hum. (agreement)

Bill Mussel:

I had a lot of exchange with…with Lummi historically, when the Act came out.

MacLachlan:

Yes, well, that's interesting, isn't it?

Bill Mussel:

And Yakima…

MacLachlan:

Yeah.

Bill Mussel:

…and, Yakima as well,

MacLachlan:

Well I think I'll turn off the tape recorder.

Bill Mussel:

Do you have to run as well?

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